From: kebarnes@cc.memphis.edu Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Subject: BATF Director Magaw On Good O' Boys Roundup Date: 8 Oct 95 23:34:31 -0500 Questions and Answers Regarding Allegations of Racism at the "Good O' Boys Roundup" in Ocoee, TN by Director John Magaw of the Treasury Department's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) (partial transcript of testimony before the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee, 7/21/95) -- Senator Orrin HATCH (R-UT): If we could just ask a few questions now-- for the benefit of... we're going to have four votes in just a few minutes, which means -- I apologize to all of you, we'll have to recess for that, but... the order of appearance, which is what our... what our committee has decided to do, is... is I'll question _first,_then Senator [Joe] Biden [D-DE], then we'll go to Senator [Strom] Thurmond [R-SC], then Senator [Patrick] Leahy [D-VT], then Senator [Charles] Grassley [R-IA], then Senator [Howell] Heflin [D- AL]-- we'll just go through those six. So, I'll probably question while others go to these votes for the first while, and then when Senator Biden gets back, he'll immediately start into his questions. That is, if I have enough time. But we... we welcome you all, we're happy to have you here. I... I personally am pleased with your statements, I think you've sent a message throughout this country that you're not going to tolerate this crap, and I think it's about time... Let me just take a second here, and... We've put up some of these charts. The charts before you depict in large copies of documents and photographs and videotapes in our possession which are_reportedly_ associated with the so-called "Good O' Boys Roundup." These include the following: Number one, a videotape, much of which is fairly_docile,_but which also shows an appalling "Check Point" sign [the hand-lettered sign reads "Nigger Check Point" and in smaller letters "Any niggers in that car? 17c[ents] a pound"] that was displayed for a period of time at a "Roundup" gathering. You've just confirmed that, Mr. [Thomas] Constantine [administrator of the U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA)]. That _did_happen, and you've had people who've told you that. And I think, Mr. [John] Magaw [director of the BATF] you're probably aware of that as well, and that this is_true._ Number two, is a... is a "hunting license" [the yellow card reads "Federal Nigger Hunting License" and in small letters notes that the "Season Open January 1, Closes December 31"] which is reported to have been available at the 1995 "Roundup". _Absolutely reprehensible..._ for any law enforcement official to be around stuff like that. Number three, these are the invitations to the 1993 and 1995 "Roundups" which were mailed to the "Good O' Boys". Now, are all of you familiar with these documents? Or at least... let, let me basically limit it to... to the three heads of the... of the various bureaus. [Are] you're familiar, Mr. Freeh? [Are] you familiar with these documents? Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) Director Louis FREEH: I've heard of them, and I've seen pictures on television, yes sir. Senator HATCH: But you hadn't seen these... uh... Director FREEH: No. Senator HATCH: How about you, Mr. Constantine? Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) Administrator Thomas CONSTANTINE: I'm familiar with the sign that you're talkin' about from seein' it on television, and I'm familiar with the... with the application for '93 and '95. I had not seen the, uh... yellow, uh... "Federal Nigger Hunting License" that you have up there. That's the first time I've seen that. Senator Hatch: O.K... Let me start with you, Mr. Magaw. I think that you'd jumped on this... maybe more quickly than anybody else, because [B]ATF was prominently mentioned in the news report. And keep in mind, the committee is just starting a preliminary investigation, so our information is somewhat limited... We're going to take those signs down, uh... now that we've identified them. Uh... but our committee is in preliminary... We don't want to malign anybody or find any fault with anybody, if somebody says it did_not_happen. But you're_confirming_ that some of them_did._ Now, can you tell us what you know about this... how many [B]ATF agents_were_involved through the years... what you know about the racist activities that went on, and other reprehensible activities, to the extent that you can tell us at this time. And I understand that you're limited to a degree by the investigation by [Treasury Department Inspector General] Ms. [Valerie] Lau. BATF Director MAGAW: From 1980, [coughs] excuse me... From 1980, until about 1985, this was primarily a camping, whitewater rafting, golf playing, volleyball, horseshoe... kind of an activity. It involved primarily officers from the local area, Tennessee, maybe from a few adjoining states, but it didn't spread out very far. It also was more of a family affair, in that it had youngsters there, and they had participation events for_them,_also spouses, events for_them._ That's not to say that blacks would not have felt welcome here. Clearly, blacks would not have felt welcome at this event from the very inception. So it makes it wrong, from the very inception... don't misunderstand what I'm saying. From 1985 until 1990, is where a lot of the things that were very_horrendous,_in my opinion, took place... were reported to take place. It was still in the investigation phase, in fact the Inspector General is, to try to confirm some of the things which we have information_on._ In 1993, '94, '95, we have had each year seven or eight active agents, and three or four or five retired. Senator HATCH: Each year since 1985? Unidentified voice: Seven or eight. Director MAGAW: Actually from '85, until probably around '90, we may have had a few more than that, but we're unsure yet. Senator HATCH: But from '90 to '95... Director MAGAW: We've_always_had at least a dozen or fifteen people there. There's not much question about that. Senator HATCH: And these are agents, plus other employees of [B]ATF? Director MAGAW: Nah... They're primarily agents, sir. Primarily agents. There may be one or another employee, but generally speaking... I'll give you an example in '93. There were seven active members, and the other part of that, approximately a dozen, were retired. In 1994, there were eight, and five. And in 1995 about the same number, seven, and four or five. Um... So that... But we [BATF agents] have always organized it, there's always been two or three people in this organization [BATF], active until about a year and a half ago, that, had these applications not been sent out, had the dues not been collected, had the area not been reserved each year, had they_not_reached out, this event would have discontinued, as the organizer of it has said. Senator HATCH: When you say "We've always... We've always organized it..." you mean people [crosstalk] Director MAGAW: People, [unintelligible] Senator HATCH: ...from [B]ATF, using [B]ATF_offices._ Director MAGAW: Thank you sir for helping me for that, because [B]ATF has_never_been supportive of this. It has been an event that as an organization we've never been supportive [of]. It has been an event that has occurred every year, it's an_ad hoc_kind of a meeting, but has always been coordinated by personnel who are currently employed at [B]ATF, until this last two years, and that same person is... is... is coordinating it, he just now is retired. Um... I don't know if that answers... Senator HATCH: How thorough are your checks on the numbers of agents and who they are who attended? Director MAGAW: '93, '94 and '95 I believe we are_very_accurate. Probably we're going to be fairly accurate right now in the numbers who appeared and were there in 1980... We're turning the rest of those things over to the Inspector General now, to see what we can confirm in the intervening years. But I think we're gonna find, in my view, we're going to find that it's always been at least a dozen, or more,_every year_of [B]ATF personnel, a combination of retired and active. For the most part, you're going to find seven or eight or nine that've been... been active, and three or four or five that have been retired. Senator HATCH: How do you feel about that? Director MAGAW: Well, I'm_appalled_by it. I'm_appalled_that we continued to promote it. That... that program, that would have died fifteen years ago, had we not had personnel, and I say we... I don't mean [B]ATF. [crosstalk] Senator HATCH: You mean people down in [that area?] Director MAGAW: I have a_responsibility_for the people in this organization. If they had not mailed out these... these flyers... had not encouraged people to come. And then what happened over the years... and why it expanded so much, is that obviously, law enforcement, because of drugs, because of gangs, because of guns being moved across the country, because of all those kinds of movement, you would work with people from another state, you would say "Hey, next year when I get my form, I'll Xerox it and send it to you and you come to this Roundup." That's kind of how it... how it grew. And it grew rapidly, from the 57 people that came in 1980, that by [the] mid-80s, and late 80s, it was up where near the total is [now.] Senator HATCH: Let me just kind of summarize... You've done some investigation, that you feel is conclusive investigation, that shows a number of [B]ATF agents having participated in these reprehensible times. You were aware of some of these... through your investigation have become aware of some of these signs, and certainly the invitations, and some of the racist activities. Can you describe any other racist activities that you're aware of, other than what we've shown you here today? Director MAGAW: We're still in the process of confirming... Senator HATCH: But anything you can add to what we know. Director MAGAW: There were skits... that were put on, that were derogatory, we're going to find that. And other, uh... things of that nature. Senator HATCH: These are racist skits... Director MAGAW: That's correct. Senator HATCH: And you're sure of that? Director MAGAW: _I'm_sure of that... I want it confirmed by the Inspector General. Senator HATCH: O.K., I... I don't mean to put you on the spot, with Mr. [Ron] Noble [Treasury Undersecretary for Enforcement] or the Inspector General, but I just want to_establish_ that this... these aren't just_allegations._ They're... these things have happened. Treasury Undersecretary for Enforcement Ron NOBLE: There's... Perhaps Director Magaw could... Senator HATCH: If I could just announce... We're going to have one round of seven minute questions, and I'll use my time up_now,_ and then try and get over to the vote in time, and then the soonest Senator Biden gets back, then he'll start in, and if you can move to Senator Thurmond as soon as... [confers with aide] Yeah, we'll be recessed up until Senator Biden gets back... and then if you'll go to Senator Thurmond. I might get stuck over there for a few minutes. O.K., Mr. Noble, thank you. Undersecretary Ron NOBLE: Perhaps Director Magaw could give you some detail about one of the... skits that was performed, that [B]ATF uncovered in its preliminary investigation that is _quite_ reprehensible and offensive but if we want the truth to get out we should [crosstalk, unintelligible] Senator HATCH: Why don't you do that Mr. Magaw? The one you know about... Director MAGAW: The one that I know about, [crosstalk, unintelligible] that has been confirmed, you know, in interviews with other persons, is that, in one case... a group... [they would do] skits that they put on, and in this one skit, a person dressed as a Klansman, uh... another person... [crosstalk] Senator HATCH: Ku... Ku Klux Klansman. Director MAGAW: That's correct. Another person with a blackened face, and the Ku Klux Klan[s]man was... committed sodomy on that particular individual. And it was obviously an enactment ...didn't actually occur, but it was an enactment. It was stopped immediately, by one of the people who was in charge of the unit, and they were degraded [sic] for it, criticized for it, said it can't happen around here, but the fact is, it happened. Senator Joseph BIDEN (D-DE): When you say it was_stopped,_you mean in mid-performance somebody stood up and_stopped_it? Director MAGAW: No, they did not stop it in mid-performance, Senator, and that's uh... another problem. They let it go through, let it finish, it was about a five minute segment, and when it was finished that's when it was made known that it was not acceptable, and that they wanted no more skits of this kind, and that if there were any of this type to come on in future that evening in the schedule, that they were not to take place. Senator BIDEN [to Senator HATCH]: I apologize Senator... Senator HATCH: [That's all right...] Senator BIDEN: ...but how would ...it's very important,_how_would they know? I mean... did... did an agent walk up on the stage and say, "By the way, you just saw this skit, and no more of this stuff, I want to tell you now..." I mean, how was it made known? Director MAGAW: It was done just like you said except that there primarily isn't a stage, it's in a backwoods area, they're all seated around, on the ground and the trees and everything, and there's an area up here that's a flat area that they perform on, and they did walk up in front. And uh... Senator BIDEN: Thank you, Mr. Magaw. I'm sorry to interrupt. Senator HATCH: Oh no... that's fine. Well, you know I... Mr. Rightmeyer was a former agent with [B]ATF, the organizer of the event, is that right? Director MAGAW: That's correct. Senator HATCH: And I might add... Mr. Rightmeyer, we offered him, we wanted him to come up and testify, and of course I think there was some indication he might be willing to, but we could never get back... he'd never answer the phone from that point on. So, we would have loved to have his testimony here today. --end-- -- **x*dna Ken Barnes, LifeSci Bldg. The University Of Memphis *(==) * Memphis, Tennessee, U.S.A. * \' * NRA/JPFO/ASM/GOP/U-U [Gramm/Alexander'96!] *(=)*** FAQ: http://www.portal.com/~chan/research/rkba.faq "I might have gone to West Point, but I was too proud to speak to a Congressman."--Will Rogers